Are "Traditional Catholics" Kosher?
Until recently, I had co-administrated a 2500 member group on facebook called Catholics are Christians to explain the faith to anyone who would listen. We had some great discussions and actually won some folks over to see the beauty and truth of the faith. Unfortunately, in the past few weeks I had some "traditional Catholics" fill the pages with divisive and fairly rancorous comments. These included links to a popular but controversial traditional Catholic personality who makes his living by perpetually criticizing the "post-Vatican II Catholic Church." This inspired me to blog about the concept of "traditional Catholicism."
There is a very good chance that this will alienate me from a certain small but vocal segment of Catholics, however, I feel it is important to talk about the proverbial "elephant in the Catholic room" here. My purpose in writing is not to alienate or divide but to warn. I recently came across a blogpost entitled "Who Is Afraid of the Latin Mass?" I thought about it and concluded that I am indeed afraid of the Latin Mass. Quite honestly, the truth is that I am not actually afraid of the Latin Mass, but very afraid of what the Latin Mass can do to some, not all, faithful Catholics. To further clarify, I think the Latin Mass is a gift of God and the Church has given it to us and it has been the normative form of worship for most of the history of Christendom. However, in the past 40 years since the Ecumenical Council called Vatican II, there has arisen a group of Catholics who believe that the TLM (Tridentine Latin Mass) is superior to the Novus Ordo (NO) mass given to us by Pope Paul the VI in 1969. These folks who refer to themselves as "traditional Catholics" claim to be the only ones who cling to the traditional truths and practices of the "faith, once delivered to the apostles."
However, our popes have indicated that both forms of the liturgy are valid. Pope Benedict gave his motu propio in 2007 which allowed the Extraordinary Form (the Latin Mass) to be celebrated freely with no restrictions. Thereafter, the bishops of every diocese must provide the opportunity to have the EF of the mass celebrated if requested by the laity or priests, without requiring an indult. So that's good news! If you desire to worship with the EF, go find one, if you desire to worship with the NO, that's good too. But just to be clear, one form is not superior to another, says the pope.
But what has happened is that some, not all, Catholics have completely disdained the Novus Ordo mass and anyone who supports it, including the hierarchy of the Church.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics believe that the NO mass is "barely" valid or not valid at all. They believe that those who assist at the NO mass are liberal or "modernist."
Now cue the twilight zone music. These same folks also hold to the the theory that Vatican 2 was hijacked by modernist liberal elements and even Jews, to subvert the true Church. (It is true that there were Jewish converts at Vatican 2, and certainly one could understand their desire to see reconciliation with the Jewish people. )
Some, not all, traditional Catholics have been extremely condescending to those of us who believe that Vatican 2 was a work of the Holy Spirit and is in continuity with the previous Church councils.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics are anti-Semitic (they would say anti-Zionistic) and believe that the Jews are behind the destruction of the Catholic faith.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics believe that the holocaust did happen, but the numbers of those killed have been exaggerated by the "Jewish-controlled media."
Some, not all, traditional Catholics believe that the Vatican is completely infiltrated by a "gay cabal" and that the homosexuals and their gay agenda have subverted American seminaries and seek the destruction of the faith. (Yes, there likely is percentage of active homosexuals in the curia and the pope is aware of it. That's quite different than believing that the Vatican is run by homosexuals as some, not all traditional Catholics espouse.)
Some, not all, traditional Catholics broadcast their distrust of our popes, bishops, and the magisterium which sows a seed of discord among the faithful.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics, believe that they understand the mind of God regarding our Church more than the current pope. They will insinuate that the current and past popes have been deceived and are making bad decisions, by pursuing relations with Jews and Muslims.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics feel that our current pope is a useless shill for the modernist agenda that has taken over the Vatican and feel he will do nothing to stop heresy.
So, are traditional Catholics kosher? Depends on whether they trust the pope or not. Pope Benedict 15th, in 1914 warned of the danger of calling oneself a traditional Catholic. This was even before Vatican 2 and the "modernist heresy!"
"It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as "profane novelties of words," out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: "This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved" (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim "Christian is my name and Catholic my surname," only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself."
Pope Benedict XV, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum 24
In conclusion, my warning is this, if you are a Catholic and love the devotional practices of traditional Catholicism and the reverent aspects of the Tridentine Mass, go for it. If you wish to receive Jesus on your tongue instead of in your hand, go for it. If you love chant and enjoy it more than the contemporary songs from the new hymnals, go for it. If you love incense, bells and the sense of mystery that is contained in the Latin Mass, go for it. These are all beautiful and wonderful things.....
But if you meet people at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (TLM) who identify themselves as Traditional Catholics and hold to any of the views I have outlined above, that is definitely not Kosher. I encourage you to embrace the pious traditions and eschew the hate, paranoia, conspiracies and anti-Semitism of some, not all, Traditional Catholics.
Pope Benedict the 16th on the Novus ordo rite: "The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal."
posted by Russ Rentler, M.D. | 8:41 PM
41 Comments:
"Peter said to Him, 'Never shall You wash my feet!' Jesus answered him, 'If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.' Simon Peter said to Him, 'Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head!'
And that's how we practice our Catholicism, it seems. Jesus calls us to full participation in the life of the Church, and some of us take that to the extreme of wanting to become even more Catholic than the Pope. Balance is easily lost when people ignore the railing (the Magisterium) that God put in place to protect us.
A very "well-balanced" post!
Renee, I always say that these folks who claim to know more than the pope have the same spirit of Luther. They are essentially protestant, they just don't know it yet, and ultimately if they continue, will end up outside the Church as did Luther.
I agree. Unfortunately, I know some of these Traditional Catholics. They have to be careful, otherwise, their strict constrictional views will lead them to heresy.
And some want to deny the teachings of the Church such as some , not all, liberal and modernists 'catholics' but I do not see any mention in this article of the danger to the Church that they may cause. So no....I do not agree that it is a well balanced post.
Johnny, this article is not about liberals or modernists. This is about the danger and warning I am trying to point out regarding those who are attracted to traditional Catholicism. Personally speaking, I am a Catholic, not liberal modern or traditional. BTW, All Catholics by definition are traditional because the Church is based on Tradition. We accept and believe the faith as was passed on to the apostles and their successors. I love Jesus, Mary, Joseph , the Saints and the Church and all of her teachings, even the hard ones!
I do my best to follow them.
To insinuate that those who are not "traditional Catholics" are modernists or liberals further proves my point as I outlined in the blog post. Some, not all, Catholics who refer to themselves as Traditonal Catholics, view "everyone else" as modernist or liberal and assume they don't follow Church teachings. This is evidence of the paranoia that I outlined above. To divide the Church as some, not all, traditional Catholics are doing is heinous, evil and playing into the hands of the devil.
"All Catholics by definition are traditional because the Church is based on Tradition."
Really? Is Nancy Pelosi traditional? Is she Catholic?
"To insinuate that those who are not "traditional Catholics" are modernists or liberals further proves my point as I outlined in the blog post."
I never said that. I just think it's interesting that those who do say traditional Catholics are bad for the Church never seem to see the danger that liberal and modernists are to the Church nor speak up against them.
"Some, not all, Catholics who refer to themselves as Traditonal Catholics, view "everyone else" as modernist or liberal and assume they don't follow Church teachings. This is evidence of the paranoia that I outlined above. "
Come on man...paranoia? What was it...over 50% of Catholics voted for the most pro abortion president ever? Or when something like this happens.....
http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/cardinal-dinardo-lets-methodists-use-houston-cathedral-for-fauxrdination/
it's only the traditionalists that speak up about it.
Some, not all, traditional Catholics bring a stain and harm to the body of Christ and eventually will "sede" from the Church. They are truly carrying out the work of Martin Luther and are no different than Protestants in the 16th century.(no offense to my Protestant brethren who were born in their faith tradition and don't know any better)But traditional Catholics should know better.
Jesus prayed that we would be one, Folks who insist that the Church has gone off the rails casting doubt on the most recent popes and criticizing the council of Vatican 2, concocting conspiracies that the Jews are behind every evil in the world etc etc, are fomenting schism, and providing scandal to the faith.
Ok well you don't want to address my points you just keep repeating the same thing. Another interesting comment though.....
protestant = brethern
Traditional = not so much
Ok johnny, yeah I forgot, you guys don't think Protestants are Christians. I guess Pope Benedict and John Paul 2 aren't real popes, in your mind, so their declarations that Protestants are our brothers and do "share the mysteries of salvation" isn't true.
Regarding the most pro-abortion president, I certainly agree, no Catholic or Christian should have voted for him. Most of the Catholics in my circles DID NOT vote for him. But isn't it a slight bit hypocritical for you traditional Catholics to claim to be pro-life when you disdain an entire race of people. I mean, Jews are humans too, right? They deserve life , right? We should be pro-Jewish right? Not anti-Jew? I can't see how traditional Catholics can call themselves pro-life when they say things like this: "It’s because the Jews rejected Christ, and in rejecting Christ they rejected Logos, and in rejecting Logos — the Reason for the universe and its redemption — they became, not only as St. Paul puts it, “enemies of the entire human race,” but foes of the moral and political order of the universe. " (E. Michael Jones, compatriot of Michael Voris)
It is truly diabolical to be antisemitic when our Lord himself was Jewish and our two recent popes have spoken out against anti- Semitism and apologized for the Church's poor treatment of the Jews in the past.
So you traditional Catholics don't like Protestants, modernist Catholics or Jews. Is there anybody that you do like?
Despite a lot of the obvious disdain for Johnny here, he does make a good point. Traditionalist Catholics are regarded as the most despicable of heretics; you see the word "schismatic" thrown around a lot with them.
Conversely, you get nothing but rainbows and sunshine when talking about ecumenical efforts with Protestants. It's a huge double standard we've got here: one group we disagree with is beneath contempt, the other we have "the utmost respect for another valid faith-tradition".
Here's my disclaimer: I'm a young adult Catholic and, while I never lived through any of the per-conciliar practices, I do feel like I have an entire heritage of reverence and devotion that was stolen away from me.
I have no disdain for johnnysc. I have a disdain for the ability of a person to claim to be devout and reverent Catholic but hate Jews and distrust the popes and attempt to invalidate the vat 2 council . If you are a young Catholic, and respect traditional Catholic devotion, bravo! Let it bring you closer to the heart of Jesus, let it transform and renew your mind so you will love God and others more and more. However if your journey causes you to become anti Semitic , as some not all traditional Catholics are, I can assure you you have fallen off the rails and need confession and a return to the heart of the church . Anti semitism and disdain and judgment for non Catholics are not Catholic values.
Saint Edith Stein, Pray for us!
I missed the part where Johnny said he was a Jew hater.
By the way, E. Michael Jones is not exactly what one would call a "traditionalist" - not if you consider that the late Michael Davies - who IS a traditionalist for whom Benedict XVI had only the utmost respect - once debated Jones in a famous debate. (Who won is a matter of judgement, but it's clear the two were coming from opposite sides of the issue.)
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/Remnant%20Books%20and%20Gifts.htm
and
http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX6.htm
FYI.
JOB
I don't know or care that he is a traditionalist . What is known is that he is an anti Semite and compatriot of Michael Voris, who many traditionalists follow. Does that make all trads anti Semitic? Of course not, but the association is very concerning. If there is absolutely no relationship between anti semitism and some not all, trads, why does a three second google search provide reams of evidence?
Dr. Rentler,
I am a young Catholic that would fit into the category of "traditional Catholic". That is, I adhere to the Traditional Latin Mass, devotional practices, and beliefs of my forefathers.
I am very familiar with the "traditional" Catholic world, the controversial points of doctrines, the faithful, priests and Bishops.
I must say, with all due respect, that your post is off base. Firstly, the "some, not all" approach of argumentation can be used to tarnish any group. I've always been more interested in the ideas and arguments themselves.
I can say unequivocally that so called traditionalists are some of the most faithful and charitable Catholics I've ever met. And, I've been in all different Catholic environments. No where have I found the Catholic faith to be lived with such fervor, discipline and charity as in these "traditional places".
Additionally, I'd recommend some additional reading, perhaps from well respected traditional authors, before writing on these things again. You might be surprised that there really are points of contention that need further clarification. Even the Holy See has admitted this.
You might find that there really are areas of concern with the Novus Ordo, among other things. Cardinal Ratzinger himself admitted such, as well as Cardinal Ottaviani (Prefect of the Holy Office), Cardinal Bacci and others.
Obviously this is not the forum to go into further detail. Thank you for your fervor in trying to see the Catholic faith spread far and wide. I hope this critique is taken in the charitable manner in which it is intended.
Dr. Rentler,
Would you trust one of the most respected Cardinals
Read about Bishop Schneider here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Schneider
And then read this,
http://www.ewtn.com/library/bishops/schneider-proposte.htm
Go and listen to the long interview with this holy man. Yes, yes, it is with Church Militant TV BUT that does not take away from what the Bishop is saying. Just trust me. Mike keeps his mouth shut for the most part and the good Bishop is crystal clear on the issues.
http://youtu.be/z8iBeaGeuxw
And please, all of you remember. This is not about YOU. It isn't about what makes YOU happy, It's not about the kind of Mass that YOU prefer. Jesus said, "Do THIS in memory of me." He didn't say make it up as you go along, bring on the dancing girls, have wolves howling for the music, or spice it up when you get bored... because it is not about how you want to worship It's about how He asked that worship be carried out.
While we are respect all persons of different religions, and the right of the people to their religions, they are not the true religion of Christ because they do not worship "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Without the recognition of the Holy Trinity, and the supernatural belief IN the Holy Trinity, you do not have the true faith.
Say the Creed, Nicene or Apostle. What do we believe? 1 holy Catholic Apostolic Church. ONE... not 35000 different denominations. Christ founded ONE holy Catholic Apostolic church. ONE.
As for the Mass, Sacrosanctum Concilium will set you on your heels. Take a highlighter, you will certainly want it.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
Dr. Rentler,
Would you trust one of the most respected Cardinals
Read about Bishop Schneider here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Schneider
And then read this,
http://www.ewtn.com/library/bishops/schneider-proposte.htm
Go and listen to the long interview with this holy man. Yes, yes, it is with Church Militant TV BUT that does not take away from what the Bishop is saying. Just trust me. Mike keeps his mouth shut for the most part and the good Bishop is crystal clear on the issues.
http://youtu.be/z8iBeaGeuxw
And please, all of you remember. This is not about YOU. It isn't about what makes YOU happy, It's not about the kind of Mass that YOU prefer. Jesus said, "Do THIS in memory of me." He didn't say make it up as you go along, bring on the dancing girls, have wolves howling for the music, or spice it up when you get bored... because it is not about how you want to worship It's about how He asked that worship be carried out.
While we are respect all persons of different religions, and the right of the people to their religions, they are not the true religion of Christ because they do not worship "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Without the recognition of the Holy Trinity, and the supernatural belief IN the Holy Trinity, you do not have the true faith.
Say the Creed, Nicene or Apostle. What do we believe? 1 holy Catholic Apostolic Church. ONE... not 35000 different denominations. Christ founded ONE holy Catholic Apostolic church. ONE.
As for the Mass, Sacrosanctum Concilium will set you on your heels. Take a highlighter, you will certainly want it.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
The hierarchy of today's Catholic Church continues to operate as though the Church was established a mere 50 years ago, happily foregoing the benefits of 1900+ years of divine guidance and practical experience in successfully contending with the world, the flesh and the devil. Blaming such dereliction on the Holy Spirit would be outrageously blasphemous, so we must look instead at the liberal political mindset of the 1960's that produced such flawed leadership in the church and elsewhere. Who would have thought the current Catechism of the Catholic Church would have eliminated all references to the Church Militant and made so many concessions (primarily by omission) to the heretical beliefs of our separated brethren? And how can we hope to launch an effective "New Evangelization" without a Militant Church? History proves that progressive Catholicism is watered down, impotent and ineffective Catholicism. This reflects the dynamics of partisan, liberal politics at the highest levels of the Church, which has nothing to do with the authentic Catholic faith. Jesus Christ couldn't stomach such a thing and neither should we. "Change" came to the Catholic Church long before "Change" and Barack Obama came to America. The causes and the results of this debacle are essentially the same, in both cases but the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, should know better. May God have mercy on our souls!
Doug, Granny, JLM, I appreciate the charity in your comments. In all due respect, I think you all are missing my point. I agree that the TLM may indeed may be celebrated more reverently at times than the NO. However, it has been given to the Church and approved by the popes. That's enough for me. "Rome has spoken, it is finished." I am not arguing about wanting a mass that appeals to ME. I go to a very reverently celebrated NO mass without the shenanigans you speak of. again, There is an option to clown masses and liturgical dancing. Find a NO parish that respects the liturgy. You don't have to denigrate the NO because the wacky goings on on the Left coast! In my diocese, we don't have any of those issues, and lives are changed and people grow in the Lord , yes, even with their participation in the NO.
Now my main point, you all have ignored the elephant in the room: The Anti-semitism associated with Traditional Catholicism. None of you have chosen to deal with this reality that I presented in my post. Is your preference for the TLM over the NO so great that you are willing to tolerate so great an evil as anti semitism and not speak out about it? One part of the new evangelization for traditional Catholics should include stamping out anti-semitism in your circles, or calling out those such as E. Michael Jones etc who have made anti-semitic comments.
My wife and I used to listen to Michael Voris regularly, until he started in against the Jews and his associations with anti-semites were made known publicly. Why are you willing to give him a pass? Why are you willing to tolerate such sin, yet claim to want the purer things of God in the TLM. If your association with the TLM keeps you from speaking out against anti- semitism, then there is something very wrong and I plead with with you all to ask Saint Edith Stein to pray for you to help you understand the evils of this. God bless you
Mr. Rentler,
It is a sin against charity to spread calumny.
Michael Voris is not a "compatriot" of E. Michael Jones.
They have no relation except for a one-hour interview, during which the issue of the Jews was barely even touched upon.
So for you to try to tar him with that anti-semitic brush--as you seem to be doing here--on no evidence whatsoever is WRONG. I've seen other Catholics try to do the same thing. Shame on them.
There is not an anti-semitic bone in MV's body, and that is coming from someone who knows him and his close friends personally.
Stop spreading falsehoods.
I'm not sure if my previous comment posted, so I will post again.
Mr. Rentler,
It is a sin against charity to spread calumny. Perhaps you are not deliberately doing so--perhaps you are going on rumor and don't know any better.
But Michael Voris is NOT a "compatriot" of E. Michael Jones, as you claim. Their only relation is a one-hour interview during which the topic of the Jews was barely even touched on.
Knowing Voris & his close friends personally, I can vouch that there is not an anti-semitic bone in his body, so your attempt to tar him with that brush is false and wrong.
Granny: you said:
"Say the Creed, Nicene or Apostle. What do we believe? 1 holy Catholic Apostolic Church. ONE... not 35000 different denominations. Christ founded ONE holy Catholic Apostolic church. ONE."
This is my point exactly and why I started this blog 7 years ago. I want everyone to see the beauty and truth of the Catholic faith and desire to join the One True faith. However, the protestants who are validly baptized, though they are in error, are not denied the "mysteries of salvation," I want these brothers and sisters in Christ to consider joining us. But the divisiveness and bitterness that I have seen on traditional blogs and websites would make a Protestant of good will, turn and run in the opposite direction, and never ever want to join the Catholic Church! To divide the Church between those who called themselves traditional and the rest of us, is counter productive and no different than what the multitude of Protestant sects do. (At least we can agree on doctrine, they can't)
Some, not all, traditional Catholics are ultimately participating in the sin of Luther and will end in schism with the most holy faith they initially thought they were trying to follow.
JLM: Thanks for the charity in your post. I have been attempting to share the Catholic faith with as many as possible since my reversion from evangelical Christianity 9 years ago. That, being said, I need to explain that I am not attempting to tarnish all traditional Catholics. I myself would likely prefer the TLM over the NO, however, some of the folks in my diocese who are advocates of it, also have associations with anti-semites and I cannot go down that road. They are also extremely critical of our bishop and other Catholics. I am just asking you to be willing to admit there there is a danger in pursuing the traditionalist route, because of its anti-semitism. It surprises me you did not address anti-semitism in your comments, and though I don't disagree that there are charitable and holy people in the EF of the Mass, You will find them in the NO as well. I spend time in Haiti yearly with the Missionaries of the Poor, working in their medical clinic, and I pray the LOTH and the rosary with them, and I attend Eucharistic Adoration and the NO mass with them. I have never met a more holy group of young men willing to give up everything to serve the Lord. And yet they are nourished by the grace of the Eucharist, found in their validly celebrated NO mass.
Dr. Rentler,
Would you trust one of the most respected Cardinals
Read about Bishop Schneider here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Schneider
And then read this,
http://www.ewtn.com/library/bishops/schneider-proposte.htm
Go and listen to the long interview with this holy man. Yes, yes, it is with Church Militant TV BUT that does not take away from what the Bishop is saying. Just trust me. Mike keeps his mouth shut for the most part and the good Bishop is crystal clear on the issues.
http://youtu.be/z8iBeaGeuxw
And please, all of you remember. This is not about YOU. It isn't about what makes YOU happy, It's not about the kind of Mass that YOU prefer. Jesus said, "Do THIS in memory of Me." He didn't say make it up as you go along, bring on the dancing girls, have wolves howling for the music, or spice it up when you get bored... because it is not about how You want to worship It's about how He asked that worship be carried out.
While we are respect all persons of different religions, and the right of the people to their beliefs, they are not the true religion. They do not worship "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Without the recognition of the Holy Trinity, AND the supernatural belief IN the Holy Trinity, you do not have the one true faith.
Say the Creed, Nicene or Apostle. What do we believe? One holy Catholic Apostolic Church. ONE... not 35000 different denominations. Jesus Christ founded ONE holy Catholic Apostolic church. ONE. He established that without Baptism, reception of the Holy Eucharist, and belief in HIM not allah not buddah not mother earth, that NO ONE NO ONE gets to the Father but through Him. That is what He established. He did not say, unless it hurts someone's feelings, or is not fun, or is too hard, or has to many rules.
As for the Mass, Sacrosanctum Concilium will set you on your heels. Print it, then use a highlighter, you will certainly want it. And while you read it remember. Papal infallibility. We have that =) SO if Pius the V established the codified Traditional Latin Mass as the most perfect form of Mass, and declared that it is never to be changed...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
Russ: Why the booster title MD?
If you crossed the Tiber I suspect you are bringing alot of baggage with you. I love your certainty of being 'right'.
I have found that traditional Catholics have a realistic desire to save souls through a Christ centered sacrificial life style based on prayer, penance and good works. Modern Catholics reverse the order and feel mighty good about themselves.....like Nancy Pelosi et al. Why is the Church so decimated with our post Vatican II mushiness? Welcoming other faiths is done with a clear proviso that we have the fullness of the Truth. Our jewish brothers who are 90% secular atheists still largely agree with their ancestors....... "We have no king but Caesar".
Don't you understand Catholic history prior to your reversion?
May I suggest you keep an open mind and see that a return to our traditions will attract more to Catholicism that any watered down nice ecumenism.
Christine:
What term should I use instead of compatriot? Can you prove that Michael Voris never spoke with him before or after that interview? Can you expect us to believe that Voris never read his writings? Please tell me this, why are you defending him? Can you please comment on the wisdom of this Catholic personality interviewing anti semites on his program? Would Michael like to do a video expalining his interest in E. Michael Jones? I apologize, if indeed Micahel Voris has never had any further associations with E. Michael Jones and will agree to change my post if you can provide me solid evidence that they do not have an ongoing relationship, or at least show me in print that Voris has denounced the anti-semitism of E. Michael Jones.
Christine, I would also appreciate, since you know Michael so well, ask him to publish a retraction on his recent story where he used the testimony of a known calumnist to paint the Vatican and American Catholic hierarchy with such a broad brush? I spend my days attempting to show the faith in a positive light to my non Catholic friends, Voris produces a video and in three minutes, based on hearsay, undoes all the good. Do you think that is acting responsibly and part of the New Evangelization?
And finally Christine, do you deny that there is no anti semitism in some, not all Traditional circles? The fact that every commenter here from traditional circles ignores this is very telling.
Paschal asks: "Russ: Why the booster title MD?"
What does my MD degree have to do with this discussion ? Never mind...
What are you implying by saying that I brought a lot of baggage? Shouldn't we charitably welcome back converts and reverts to the faith? I think being in schism with the Catholic Church for most of my life has given me a unique and important perspective, especially as it concerns those who are perilously close to schism within the Catholic Church as is some, not all traditional Catholics. Converts to the faith have been very strong in propelling the new evangelization. Folks such as Scott Hahn. What baggage do you suspect he brought with him?
I am not a "Modern catholic", I am a Catholic. Why do you think that if you aren't a traditional Catholic, you must be Nancy Pelosi and the likes? One may argue that those on both extremes are not actually Catholic at all. Folks who don't follow the Church teachings and ignore the Councils! I see that in "traditional Catholics" and "liberal Catholics." BTW, Anti-semitism is not a Catholic value!!!
In my Novus Ordo parish, we have daily mass, Eucharistic adoration, daily prayer of the rosary, pro life activities,and other traditional Catholic practices.There is nothing mushy about the practice of our faith. To paint all Catholics as "Nancy Pelosi modern catholics" is judgmental and represents the very issues that I presented in my post about traditional Catholicism.
I think returning to the traditions of the faith would be wonderful, just leave the bitterness, judgmentalism, hate, paranoia, conspiracies and anti-semitism at the door of your TLM, thanks very much!
One other thing Paschal: May I suggest that rank anti-semitism will never lead anyone to become Catholic, but a return to faithful Catholic devotion will. Anti semitism among some traditional Catholics is a cancer in the body of Christ and needs to be diagnosed, and removed through the medicinal grace found in the sacrament of penance.
Dr. Rentler,
Thank you for your response. I'm happy to discuss the anti-semitism claims. My honest opinion is that it is not as prevalent as many such as yourself believe. And, I say this after having met thousands of "traditionlists" and attended TLM's in dozens of different locations. I simply have not seen it.
Now, it may be helpful for us to define just exactly what anti-semitism is. For example, is it anti-semitic to think that the Jewish people are proponents of ideas that are wrong and contrary to the common good? Is it anti-semitic to say that Jewish people need to convert to the Catholic Church? In my opinion, these things are often labeled as anti-semitic but they really are not.
I've always considered anti-semitism to be a form of racism against Jews (or other peoples of semitic origin). In my opinion, opposing someone's ideas while at the same time recognizing their value as a human being is not anti-semitic.
With this understanding, I can say that I've not been confronted with this problem of anti-semitism that you claim is prevalent in the "traditional" world. I don't think it exists to the extent you claim.
To my Traditional Catholic friends:
see Patrick Coffin's recent blogpost here:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/patrick-coffin/meet-the-mad-trads
JLM, you have met thousands of traditionalists and never saw anti semitism. That's great. I guess I have been unlucky. In my short time in the Catholic faith (9 years), in my predominantly Novus Ordo dominated diocese, the traditional Catholics I did know, and sadly have now distanced myself from, were associated with anti-semitic bloggers, personalities and orders. (Slaves of Immaculate Heart of Mary, New Hampshire)
Have you seen therecent post by Patirck Coffifn above? Have you read the bloggers Simcha Fisher and Dawn Eden, both Catholic converts from Judaism and their experiences with traditional Catholicism and anti semitism. I still stand by my statement, some not all Catholics who call themselves traditional are indeed anti semitic. You ask :"For example, is it anti-semitic to think that the Jewish people are proponents of ideas that are wrong and contrary to the common good?" My answer is no it is not, our baptismal calling is to evangelize and win all to Christ, but it is anti semitic to focus on Jews as "the enemies of the human race" and to claim they are behind every evil in this modern world. Those theories are proponed by traditonalist Catholics and your failure to recognize that surprises me. Perhaps you are new to traditonal Catholcism? Perhaps Google "anti-semitism and traditional Catholicism" and then get back to me. There is more than enough evidence to prove that some, not all traditionalist Catholics are anti semtic. But as a traditional Catholic who desires to be close to the heart of the Church, would you align yourself with John Paul 2 soon to be canonized, who spent the body of his pontificate attempting reparation for the sins of the Catholic Church against the Jews. Some, not all traditional Catholics are undoing the most excellent work that he and Pope Benedict accomplished in re-establishing dialog with our "elder brothers in the faith." Perhaps you can share those teachings with your traditionalist brothers? God bless
Please read a brief summary of the Blessed John Paul 2's work of reconciliation with the Jews in this link. If traditionalist Catholics are not anti-Jewish or anti-semitic, they will give a hearty Amen to this saint's great works of charity toward the Jews, our "Eldest brothers in the faith," (as Pope Benedict would say.)
Dr Rentler,
We simply disagree on this matter regarding the extent to which real anti-semitism exists in the "traditional" Catholic world. Again, as long as Catholics attack the false ideas and philosophies as opposed to their human dignity I do not see it as anti-semitic.
Regarding Pope John Paul II, I applaud his goal of strengthening relations with the Jews, but am disappointed with one consistent absence: the failure to call for their conversion to the Holy Catholic Church.
This has led to the false understanding by many that Jews do not need to convert. Many Catholics espouse this opinion, which is due in large part to the failure of the hierarchy to teach that conversion to the Catholic faith is necessary.
Thanks again for your exchange and I hope you will consider attending the TLM more in the future. We're really just normal folks trying to get to heaven.
JLM: Thanks for the charitable dialogue. Yes we will have to agree to disagree on the extent to which anti-semitism exists in the traditional Catholic world. You don't see it as anti semitic when Catholics attacking false ideas and philosophies as opposed to their human dignity. In that case , then I wish the traditional Catholics would not focus on the false ideas and philosophies of Jews so much. How bout going after Presbyterians, or methodists or Calvinists or baptists? Certainly they have a lot of false philosophies too. It just seems odd to me that when our Holy Fathers are encouraging dialogue with the Jews and apologizing for their mistreatment by the Church, some traditional Catholics are claiming Jews are "enemies of the human race." I know you haven't experienced that, thank God, but I assure you it's out there. I encourage you to share your charitable spirit with other traditional Catholics if/when they start to murmur about "Jews infiltrating the Church", and such rot, you could warn them of the danger that road will take them to. I too wnat to get to heaven and take as many people with me as possible. It's part of our baptismal calling. God bless.
What are you talking about, man? Paranoia, hysteria, wild accusations. Get a grip, Russ. Why the witchhunt?
Why the charge of anti-semitism? Why so divisive? If you are afraid of EF- hey! don't go. But pay attention-it IS called EXTRAORDINARY. I think that is superior to ordinary. We 'traditional Catholics' LOVE our beautiful Church! Lay off! Michael Voris has excellent critiques of the bad fruit of V2- and there is plenty of it- ie the Pelosis. Why don't you go after them? Some, but not all, NO masses are not just lacking respect- but the truth of our faith. God bless you Russ. Calm down. Maybe you need some yoga or centering prayer.
As my blog post stated: "Some, not all, traditional Catholics believe that the NO mass is "barely" valid or not valid at all. They believe that those who assist at the NO mass are liberal or "modernist." Anon: you have proved this point, and illustrated that my blog post was indeed accurate. I don't need centering prayer and yoga, those are new age practices. I need more of Jesus in the Eucharist and the sacrament of penance. If the TLM is superior to NO and brings people closer to God, why then are some advocates of TLM so bitter, angry and judgmental? The fruits of TLM should be the fruits of the Holy Spirit, none of which are anti-semitism, hatred and paranoia, as far as my Douay Rheims translation states.
Again to the "more" traditional catholics... i would have to reiterate Renee's comment - wanting to become more Catholic than the Pope. Check yourselves and the "more" traditional views you have. Catholics are not protestants. We believe the gates of hell will not prevail. Pray for humility, and for the mother church and that we will receive the teachings will open hearts and minds. The church militant is doing what luther did. Yes, if you have issues, discuss and prayerfully hope for the Holy Spirit to direct you, but do not get on your high horses and become little Popes yourselves. Humility my brothers & sisters in Christ...Pauline
What are cafeteria catholics… the “modernists” that ignore, publicly flout their disregard for church teachings, and call on the church to change their not-with-the-times teaching…..sound familiar?
Let us not make the NO vs TLM the Martin Luther issue of our time.
I cringe every time someone brings up the Vatican II and says it is not the work of the Holy Spirit……
I clicked on a link that was posted to a catholic FB page for the country where I am from – the Most Holy Family Monastery… it said defending the REAL catholic faith….and in same breath – said Pope John Paul, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis were the antipopes, that Mother Theresa was the anti Christ. Wow really! We all need to pray for humility. Everyone wants to be right, no one wants to listen…. Listen, pray and humble yourselves… this is what sets us apart from bible alone, sola scriptura Protestant brothers.
Great post Russ. May God continue to guide and bless you in evangelising the ONE HOLY & APOSTOLIC Catholic faith. Pauline.
I was happy to have a group called Catholics ARE Christians to appear in my Facebook. Because it is surprising how many people are misled ingo believing Catholics are not Christians, from the pulpit even sometimes. Shameful, yes, but important for us to keep saying that we ARE Christians and be heard. Sorry to see the group go. Julie
Julie, I was sorry to have to close it but I was afraid it was becoming a forum for people posting links to divisive traditional Catholic sites and then very vitriolic comments from some, not all traditional Catholics. Part of the New Evangelization IS NOT showing the world how extremely unkind and bitter and divisive, some Catholics are.
Great!
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